Interview with Ms. Agnès Pannier-Runacher, Minister for Energy Transition, to Europe 1 on energy sobriety, nuclear energy and wind turbines.
DATE: September 27, 2022
With Sonia Mabrouk – Journalist
Full Text
SONIA MABROUK
Welcome this morning to Europe 1 and hello Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Hello Sonia MABROUK.
SONIA MABROUK
Energy sobriety is really the objective set in this period of crisis, at the risk of accelerating the recession, as IFRAP says, the think tank, Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER, has modeled the effects of the plan of government restraint, and the consequences for growth are likely to be severe, to say the least.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
So, not at all, and I also reacted to this publication whose scientific methodology is more than dubious, sobriety is common sense measures that start from the field and aim to hunt down energy that is wasted, and when you turn off a light or when the Ministry of Energy Transition puts the heating on 19 degrees, I can assure you that it will have no consequences on growth. In companies, it’s even the opposite, what companies are telling us today, and you know that, for example, large-scale distribution companies have mobilized on the sobriety plan, they have hunted down all these savings of energies, these ventilations which turn when their shopping centers are closed,
SONIA MABROUK
So sobriety does not…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
In other topics. So there, the sobriety plan…
SONIA MABROUK
Doesn’t refer to a reduction order for you?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Especially not, and we have been very clear with the industrial world, because in the industrial world, sobriety can be perceived as precisely a questioning, but it is very clear for us that sobriety is not It is not less to produce, it is on the contrary to seek savings on energy which is spent unnecessarily to allow better production, and precisely, to ensure that energy costs generally fall, and to facilitate the competitiveness of companies which themselves need a lot of energy to produce.
SONIA MABROUK
Good, but any organization that contradicts your choices, is it stamped with the seal of a lack of scientific rigor this morning, Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER? You question…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
I invite you to re-read the study…
SONIA MABROUK
I did it…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Because in this case, you see that it is not based on a scientific argument, and moreover, in a very simple way, sobriety is an object that is worked on by many of economists and which is one of the fundamental paths to achieve decarbonization, to fight against global warming, there are three basic issues, we must save the energy that we waste, it is sobriety, it is the energy efficiency too, that is to say, for example, change your lighting for lighting that is more efficient, that consumes less energy…
SONIA MABROUK Let
‘s talk about it…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
We’re talking about LEDs, LEDs, it can be 50% energy savings, we still don’t touch growth, there, and then, it’s better to produce energies that are renewable to get out of fossil fuels , the challenge being that fossil fuels are the cause of global warming…
SONIA MABROUK
So no decrease…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Fossil fuels are also the source of our energy dependence…
SONIA MABROUK
Let’s talk about it, Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
And which explain the loss of purchasing power of the French and the loss of competitiveness of companies. So the enemy is fossil fuels…
SONIA MABROUK
So no decrease, you say, but how sobriety is a voluntary process, that’s what you also say, it is necessarily voluntary?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Yes, because it is an approach that is intended to be part of time, it is how we organize ourselves better to consume energy and achieve an energy saving of 40% by 2050, 40% by 2050, that’s what the RTE experts have set for us as an objective to once again achieve net zero carbon, what we call, that is to say the fact of no longer emitting greenhouse gases, and therefore of having responded to the problem of global warming…
SONIA MABROUK
I hear well, but voluntary, but sometimes, isn’t it suffered when we have to partly support, and this is the reality, the consequences of the choices of our rulers, who have decided in particular to close Fessenheim?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
I think we are mixing up several things, sobriety is an approach that we have taken at company level, at ministry level…
SONIA MABROUK
Well, no, it’s the result of certain choices too, Madam Minister…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
No, an approach that we have undertaken which aims to respond to the challenge of the fight against global warming, so you can be sober, because you want to reduce emission gases… greenhouse, and because we want to get out of fossil fuels, whatever the situation of our energy system, it is a step that is necessary, and why it is voluntary, because it is more appropriate that way…
SONIA MABROUK
But we don’t question her…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Because everyone can make it their own and everyone can go a step further…
SONIA MABROUK
I understand, but isn’t this the consequence of certain choices made by Emmanuel MACRON, François HOLLANDE, to close Fessenheim in particular, not everything is obviously the consequence of Fessenheim, but is it that this closure does not push us towards a sobriety that you call voluntary?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
I am going to repeat one thing, sobriety, it is supported by the IPCC, which is the international group of experts for the fight against global warming, and it is supported as being a necessary element in the fight against global warming, whatever the country, other countries have not been concerned by Fessenheim, however, this subject of sobriety is important, like that of energy efficiency. Then there is the short-term situation, that is to say the energy crisis, and there, in this energy crisis, indeed, you can question the decision to close Fessenheim, just as we can question our delay in terms of of renewable energies, and that is why we are taking action today, we are taking action…
SONIA MABROUK
So, let’s talk about it…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
We act by having a recovery plan for renewable energies, and I want to tell those who are listening to us that renewable energies are many things, it’s hydraulics…
SONIA MABROUK
We’re going to talk about it, I want to talk about nuclear power first, Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER, we’re obviously going to talk about it, you’re supporting this acceleration plan on renewable energies, but on nuclear, precisely…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
So it’s also a nuclear recovery plan…
SONIA MABROUK
Le Figaro was able to consult this morning the bill for the acceleration of nuclear power, the objective of the text would be to shorten the administrative delays, in order to lay the first stone of the first EPR 2, it is the new reactor, before the end of the five-year term, do you confirm this information this morning, this desire on your part?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER Absolutely
, I will introduce a bill which will make it possible to accelerate, here too, the installation of new nuclear reactors in sites which are already existing, which have nuclear reactors, we have land reserves , so you know, there are two projects that are in Penly, the next two reactors could be in Gravelines, and we are launching the public debate at the end of October, because we want to stick to our nuclear schedule .
SONIA MABROUK
So the first stone before 2027 for a possible entry into service only by 2035?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Absolutely , because these are long-term projects, with construction phases that are very complex, and therefore, this schedule brings us to an EPR that would not come out, which would not be put into service. before 2035.
SONIA MABROUK
How to go faster, Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER, there will be derogations, moreover, such as offshore wind turbines, we will talk about it later, in other words, will the reactor projects benefit from what is called an imperative reason of major public interest for derogation, for example from the environmental code, to go faster?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
So our objective is on the sites which today host nuclear installations, to ensure that we can speed up the administrative procedures, why, because these sites, we already know them from a environmental point of view, from a preventive archeology point of view, we already know that they are artificialized, and therefore, we can say to ourselves that we can go faster on the administrative investigation phases, because we do not we are not going to learn special things, we are not going to endanger nature on sites that already exist, which already host nuclear reactors. So it’s basically, here too, a common sense measure, to save time, and to ensure that our country’s energy independence is built.
SONIA MABROUK
But despite everything, these new EPRs will not be able to shelter France in terms of energy. On this subject, Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER, the multiannual energy program is on the horizon for 2028, is it still topical, I saw yesterday that the law still provides the closure of 12 nuclear reactors, we walk on the head! ?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
So, as you know, Sonia MABROUK, this multi-annual energy program is intended to be reviewed, I will start the work in the coming weeks, in October…
SONIA MABROUK
It will be swept away, it will be repealed…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
It is going to be adjusted, it is very clear, the President of the Republic said it himself, the closures, the previous programming must evolve, it must integrate an acceleration of the fight against global warming. So it must integrate an increase in our electricity production, and the President of the Republic very clearly said last February that he would extend all the nuclear power stations as long as the security conditions are met. And that’s what we will do.
SONIA MABROUK
Besides, a particular subject, do we have the skills today, moreover, it’s a rather dizzying question to ask it in France, because we were all the same the champions of the nuclear, do we have the skills today for these new EPR 2s, to build them to maintain them?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
So, as I said, it’s a long-term project, it’s one of the finest industrial projects we have, which we are going to launch in France in the coming weeks, and we have a program for both training and recruitment which is very intense, EDF told us that they would need roughly 10% of the engineers who are currently trained in France; it is part of the roadmap to work on the attractiveness of this sector, but also on recruitment and training. The good news is that for a project that is intended to come out, to start in 2035, well, that gives us time to set up the sectors and to ensure that we have it when we have it. need engineers, technicians, welders,
SONIA MABROUK
The time, the time, you have just said the time, after having dithered so much on nuclear this morning, our listeners are certainly listening to you, they say to themselves: but how much time wasted, all this for say today your will, your ambition on nuclear…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
You know, Sonia MABROUK, it was the President of the Republic who in 2017, while the mandate… President HOLLANDE, in the previous five-year term, had decided to close Fessenheim, which first saved AREVA, and which has very clearly regained control…
SONIA MABROUK
Who also acted on the closure of Fessenheim, Madam Minister…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Which had unfortunately been decided before. And you know that nuclear installations, we see it in Belgium…
SONIA MABROUK
You could have not done it…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
We see it in Germany, when we decide to stop them, it’s not so easy to restart them, it’s not like an electric switch, we don’t do on, off, and it there is a minimum of maintenance to be carried out again, and it takes several years to get back on the road, if, at the time when the decision could have changed, if we had to change this decision, it would have been several years of work. So it’s not white, black, and it’s the President of the Republic who in 2020 made nuclear power one of the five strategic sectors of the recovery plan…
SONIA MABROUK
Certainly, but you recognize that there were years of delay…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
He’s the President of the Republic, sorry…
SONIA MABROUK
It’s good to correct them, Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER, but there was this delay and this closure, it’s a fact.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
I am not going to speak for the predecessors of President MACRON, I believe that indeed…
SONIA MABROUK
He was part of the previous government.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Everyone would like to have additional nuclear power stations today, but I see that they should have been launched 15 years ago. 15 years ago, that’s 3 terms of office, you can see that it was not exactly what we had in mind at the time, including under the SARKOZY presidency. So let’s not go back to the spilled milk, today we have a plan, this plan is the revival of nuclear power.
SONIA MABROUK So much
for nuclear, renewable energies.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
This plan is also about relaunching renewable energies.
SONIA MABROUK
So you say, we don’t have time to wait any longer, you were Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER by the way last Thursday in Saint-Nazaire at the inauguration of the offshore wind farm, what do you say to those who denounce these wind turbines, an ecological nonsense, an aesthetic aberration, what do you say to them?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER Personally,
I’m amazed because today if we want to save the human species, we’re going to have to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
SONIA MABROUK
Don’t tell me that to save the human species we will need wind turbines, otherwise we will fall into the chair.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
So wait, I’m going all the way Sonia MABROUK. The subject today is to get out of fossil fuels. Fossil fuels kill biodiversity. Fossil fuels create a dependency of our country which is major and impact the purchasing power of the French and that is what we are talking about today. There are different kinds of renewable energies. There is photovoltaics, there is geothermal energy, there is hydraulics, there are wind turbines, each of these energies and I could go on enumerating.
SONIA MABROUK
Yes, but the Saint-Nazaire wind farm…
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
Each of these energies counts in the fight against global warming.
SONIA MABROUK
Yes, yes, the Saint-Nazaire wind farm is 480 megawatts whereas a nuclear reactor is on average 900 megawatts, an EPR reactor is 1650, 3 times more, there is no Photo. I mean, what guarantees us today additional power with these wind turbines and you haven’t answered me on the aesthetic aberration by the way?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
So me the aesthetic aberration of tastes and colors we can discuss, I do not think it is an aesthetic aberration, but that I would say that it is a debate which will be in the audience. on the other hand, what I can tell you is that once again, we are working on the basis of science and expertise, science and expertise tell you the following things, they tell you that if we really want to recover our energy sovereignty, our energy independence, we need more electricity production and more renewable heat production than offshore wind turbines and that’s what other countries in Europe are doing, that’s what the UK is doing, that’s what the Baltic countries are doing, allow to concentrate the production of electricity with a level of efficiency that is better than onshore wind turbines. What the experts are also telling us is that we need both nuclear and renewable energies because nuclear will not be enough and renewable energies will not be enough. And so it is on the basis of these observations of serious professional work that we build an energy policy, it is not on the basis of likes or dislikes or commercial coffee comments.
SONIA MABROUK
It’s still important when it comes to French landscapes Madam Minister. It’s not anecdotal.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
And I think it’s important, it’s not anecdotal but it’s not anecdotal either to be in a situation where we are dependent on foreign countries and we pay ten times more electricity…
SONIA MABROUK
We are citizens, I wouldn’t dare ask you where you live outside of Paris, if we put a wind farm in front of your daily vision, I don’t know if you will tell me that there are tastes and colors in life.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
I will answer you that we have landscapes that have been shaped in particular by electrical installations and that the large power line poles are inscribed in our landscapes. Do they bring additional beauty to our landscapes, I don’t know, but what I know today is that they bring additional resilience and that they offer a public service which is absolutely essential.
SONIA MABROUK
We are going to conclude.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
So wind turbines, photovoltaics, geothermal energy and, please, let’s get out of the debate between nuclear and renewable energies and address the situation. The situation is to get out of fossil fuels, to go faster.
SONIA MABROUK
A question to conclude.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
It is to respond to the fight against climate change and the fight against…
SONIA MABROUK
It is important because it also concerns Armenia and I would like to say a word about it all the same. It is a question of the adequacy between our principles and our needs. We are sanctioning Russia for attacking Ukraine and therefore we have to find alternatives to Russian gas but I don’t mind Europe choosing Azerbaijan which is wiping its feet right now on Armenian sovereignty?
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
So I withdraw Europe, it has condemned and it is still very clear on these principles.
SONIA MABROUK
She is not so clear about Azerbaijani gas.
AGNES PANNIER-RUNACHER
It is very clear about its principles in terms of human rights, it is one of the rare continents to carry this path continuously. It is one of the rare continents to take its responsibilities, and not just Russia, in terms of human rights, and I think that is a strength and I am proud to be in a government that supports Europe and that supports these principles which are essential for our democracies.
SONIA MABROUK
Thank you Agnès PANNIER-RUNACHER for answering our questions and have a nice day.
Source: Government of France Information Service, September 28, 2022